The Theory of the Leisure Class, written over 150 years ago, described how some people need to signal their wealth and status to others. In those days it was fancy private rail cars. Today it's automobiles. There is nothing new under the sun...
FWIW I paid $81k for my Grenadier. No options aside from lockers. I’d already had 4 Land Cruisers in my lifetime and wanted to try something different. Glad it’s out of my system and now I can hang onto hope that we get a 300 series in the USA.
You are reviewing a car you have never driven and you don’t even have the fact on paper correct. The B58 engine is very reliable and even used by Toyota in the Supra. It does fit 35” tire on factory wheels without a lift. Carraro builds the axles. Carraro axles are found in John Deere, Case, CNH, Caterpillar, JLG, Terex, Trak, Astec, New Holland, Gehl, Pettibone and Komatsu equipment.
I suppose you do restaurant reviews from the pictures on Google.
First off, I really like your writing and your strong opinions, so thank you. And I don't post this as a counterpoint to your INEOS critique, but simply to provide a different take on the old Defender. I own both a 1976 Series 3 Land Rover and a 1993 Defender. They are my sole vehicles, year round here in Minneapolis and I've used them both extensively, both are or have been street parked since I got them (8 and 4 years ago, respectively) and I do all maintenance and repairs in my driveway. I've had the Defender off-roading, camp in the back (it's a 110 2-door), use it to haul firewood, furniture and mulch, it has no radio or amenities, gets upper 20s MPG, I don't (can't) lock the doors and it's pretty ratted out aesthetically but runs beautifully (the 200tdi motor is known for its reliability, ironically). I did not pay much for either of them, one bought off of Craigslist for a song, and the other from an importer who didn't zhuzh it up at all. My own experience with both has been as charming, reliable, and utilitarian vehicles I can take anywhere and not be worried about theft or damage. In an off-road driving course I took, the Defender outperformed modern Jeeps and TRD Toyotas, and I can't claim it was just my expert driving. All this said,, the Defender is a very rustic experience -- it's cold, loud, and slow. I love it for all that, and I know I am in the minority. I did not buy either Land Rover as any sort of wealth symbol (I am not wealthy) so there are some of us out there who appreciate them for their heritage, their capability (YouTube: Camel Trophy), and their sheer "mechanical-ness." And every time I think maybe it's time for something modern to either supplement or replace my Defender (the Series 3 will never go), I am left where I started. I don't mean to be that guy... er, defending his Defender out of some misplaced allegiance or rose-tinted glasses. I just wanted to lend a counterpoint to your description of typical Defender buyers. Thanks for the post. -- Jason
P.S. my "beat" is testing traditional diving watches in situ, many of them luxury timepieces, and most of your sentiments about luxury SUVs apply to that space as well. My mantra is, "the more you pay for something, the more you should expect from it."
The BMW engine reliability and lack of parts is bad enough, but the axles are from an Italian tractor company. If you break an axle, I’m guessing you’ll be waiting for a while. And loads of people are complaining about the tremec transfer case issues. I drove one when they came out to CA for customer test drives. It’s fun to drive off-road on some technical sections but definitely not worth the money for what it is. Front locking diff is a positive though!
Italian farm tractors are generally good. Lots of wine grape growers use them. They are often low and can fit between the vine trelisses. I believe they hold up ok.
Don’t have an issue with the axle itself, it’s parts availability that concerns me. You have a vehicle that is mostly sourced from European parts. I live in the United States. If I break a part, I want to know I can get it replaced quickly, which happens when off-roading. I’m not a jeep Stan, but you can order a new axle and have it delivered to your house in less than a week right now. I’ve seen countless axles broken down on hard trails.
We've been driving a 2007 Hilux in Tasmania. The alternator went out recently in a fairly remote area, but we limped in to New Norfolk, and were able to get a new one from Hobart the same day. You can't swing a dead cat in Australia without hitting a Toyota ute (pick up in N America). Hence, parts are available with no drama.
It's difficult for me to imagine someone paying $70+K for a vehicle to drive it on "hard trails". If anything, these Ineos might be driven on something like the old Pony Express routes or up to a snowy cabin in Vermont. Heaven forbid they would get Red Neck Pinstripes on the doors!
We're down in Dallas this week and there's Grenadiers everywhere. Somehow the thing really fits in alongside all the flaunting of extreme wealth and boring lives that seems to define this town.
Hmm. Get a Jeep, said no one in Afrca, ever, because they break down. Get a Landcruiser or a Payrol and you will be fine. Or an Isuzu pick up truck. The Ineos is well made at least unlike Jeeps.
You obviously forgot one major benefit of the Grenadier, IT CAN TOW OVER 7K LBS. Have you checked the reliability of Jeep ? They will crater at around 50k miles. Ask me I know. My old '92 Jeep is still running..but since they were bought out..ick. Had several F150's but most Manufacturers are having some type of recall. For God's sake drive one before you bash the Grenadier...They are refreshing in a world of push button technology.
We own both a Jeep Wrangler (heavily modified with 5.5" lift, lockers, 35s, supercharger to compensate for the extra weight and much more over the years). Had considered a new Rubicon as our 2nd vehicle until I drove the both and chose the Grenadier. Build quality doesn't compare - the Ineos is a tank and servicing is a breeze. My mechanic (an avid Jeep Crawler and specialist) simply thought it was well designed (overly) and has no issue with the known reliability of the BMW engine. This article seems to be written by someone who just surfed the web to come up with their opinion and zero real world experience with the vehicle. The Ineos is a tank and you feel the difference. Not even a close comparison. As for the "Wealth Signaling" comment the Rubicon isn't much cheaper, except for build quality. Explains why Stellantis has been struggling as a company (amongst others).
What a load of bollocks. I have 50k kms on mine. A few niggles with software, awesomely capable, comfortable. But it’s not a Toyota and is not as refined as a Toyota, also not as boring
Some of the observations are very credible and well written.
The notion all BMW engines are garbage is not in that category. They have , and still do make some of the best automotive engines in the world. The B58 is in that camp. I have had three , wracked up over 220k across them and aside from consumables had zero issues outside of routine servicing.
You're definitely lucky. And 220k across three engines is...not really that exciting?
We own a 200 series Land Cruiser. If we wanted to hop in it 5 minutes from now and drive it around the world, we could do that without a single moment of thought or preparation. It's got 30k miles on it now, but the same will be true at 300k, or 600k...you get the idea. An engine blowing up the second its warranty is up may be what you want in a supercar, but it is very much not appropriate for a 4x4.
What a load of utter nonsense! A poorly researched review. Did you actually talk to owners to get the consensus on whether they made a good choice or not? I know the answer…
The Theory of the Leisure Class, written over 150 years ago, described how some people need to signal their wealth and status to others. In those days it was fancy private rail cars. Today it's automobiles. There is nothing new under the sun...
While the “OG” Defender is an iconic look I'm stuck loving my landcruisers, even if the newest iteration is… something.
Enjoyed Doug's take on the Prado: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGe9qBi1r94
In my current family life I need the third row so its going to be restoring another cruiser or buying something other than the new model.
Ford Expedition Timberline?
...is a rebodied 4Runner.
Just sold my Grenadier after 19k miles and went back to a 200 series. It was a fun experience but a bad decision.
Service was too difficult to get to and the lack of a promised service manual just didn’t do it for me living 3.5hrs from a dealer.
awesome 2nd car for the type of guy that can afford that.
It's hard to understand why someone would spend $100k on a fake French Defender when a real deal Land Cruiser exists. We paid $78k for ours in 2020.
FWIW I paid $81k for my Grenadier. No options aside from lockers. I’d already had 4 Land Cruisers in my lifetime and wanted to try something different. Glad it’s out of my system and now I can hang onto hope that we get a 300 series in the USA.
You are reviewing a car you have never driven and you don’t even have the fact on paper correct. The B58 engine is very reliable and even used by Toyota in the Supra. It does fit 35” tire on factory wheels without a lift. Carraro builds the axles. Carraro axles are found in John Deere, Case, CNH, Caterpillar, JLG, Terex, Trak, Astec, New Holland, Gehl, Pettibone and Komatsu equipment.
I suppose you do restaurant reviews from the pictures on Google.
hahahaha pizza reviews from trip advisor pics
First off, I really like your writing and your strong opinions, so thank you. And I don't post this as a counterpoint to your INEOS critique, but simply to provide a different take on the old Defender. I own both a 1976 Series 3 Land Rover and a 1993 Defender. They are my sole vehicles, year round here in Minneapolis and I've used them both extensively, both are or have been street parked since I got them (8 and 4 years ago, respectively) and I do all maintenance and repairs in my driveway. I've had the Defender off-roading, camp in the back (it's a 110 2-door), use it to haul firewood, furniture and mulch, it has no radio or amenities, gets upper 20s MPG, I don't (can't) lock the doors and it's pretty ratted out aesthetically but runs beautifully (the 200tdi motor is known for its reliability, ironically). I did not pay much for either of them, one bought off of Craigslist for a song, and the other from an importer who didn't zhuzh it up at all. My own experience with both has been as charming, reliable, and utilitarian vehicles I can take anywhere and not be worried about theft or damage. In an off-road driving course I took, the Defender outperformed modern Jeeps and TRD Toyotas, and I can't claim it was just my expert driving. All this said,, the Defender is a very rustic experience -- it's cold, loud, and slow. I love it for all that, and I know I am in the minority. I did not buy either Land Rover as any sort of wealth symbol (I am not wealthy) so there are some of us out there who appreciate them for their heritage, their capability (YouTube: Camel Trophy), and their sheer "mechanical-ness." And every time I think maybe it's time for something modern to either supplement or replace my Defender (the Series 3 will never go), I am left where I started. I don't mean to be that guy... er, defending his Defender out of some misplaced allegiance or rose-tinted glasses. I just wanted to lend a counterpoint to your description of typical Defender buyers. Thanks for the post. -- Jason
P.S. my "beat" is testing traditional diving watches in situ, many of them luxury timepieces, and most of your sentiments about luxury SUVs apply to that space as well. My mantra is, "the more you pay for something, the more you should expect from it."
My old Disco 1: https://cdn.outsideonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/31/_wes-vehicles-side.jpg?width=800
Saw one of these on the road in suburbia turning into the local (private) Episcopal High School.
Makes sense, thanks
The BMW engine reliability and lack of parts is bad enough, but the axles are from an Italian tractor company. If you break an axle, I’m guessing you’ll be waiting for a while. And loads of people are complaining about the tremec transfer case issues. I drove one when they came out to CA for customer test drives. It’s fun to drive off-road on some technical sections but definitely not worth the money for what it is. Front locking diff is a positive though!
Oh god, didn't realize the axles were sourced from Italy. This is a very European effort for something that's all bulldogs, best bitter and brexit.
Italian farm tractors are generally good. Lots of wine grape growers use them. They are often low and can fit between the vine trelisses. I believe they hold up ok.
Don’t have an issue with the axle itself, it’s parts availability that concerns me. You have a vehicle that is mostly sourced from European parts. I live in the United States. If I break a part, I want to know I can get it replaced quickly, which happens when off-roading. I’m not a jeep Stan, but you can order a new axle and have it delivered to your house in less than a week right now. I’ve seen countless axles broken down on hard trails.
Exactly. There is value in commonality and ubiquity. That's a big reason why I chose our two current trucks, and why I modified them the way I did.
We've been driving a 2007 Hilux in Tasmania. The alternator went out recently in a fairly remote area, but we limped in to New Norfolk, and were able to get a new one from Hobart the same day. You can't swing a dead cat in Australia without hitting a Toyota ute (pick up in N America). Hence, parts are available with no drama.
It's difficult for me to imagine someone paying $70+K for a vehicle to drive it on "hard trails". If anything, these Ineos might be driven on something like the old Pony Express routes or up to a snowy cabin in Vermont. Heaven forbid they would get Red Neck Pinstripes on the doors!
We're down in Dallas this week and there's Grenadiers everywhere. Somehow the thing really fits in alongside all the flaunting of extreme wealth and boring lives that seems to define this town.
I stopped at ‘I have not driven one’. Seriously dude?
Hmm. Get a Jeep, said no one in Afrca, ever, because they break down. Get a Landcruiser or a Payrol and you will be fine. Or an Isuzu pick up truck. The Ineos is well made at least unlike Jeeps.
You obviously forgot one major benefit of the Grenadier, IT CAN TOW OVER 7K LBS. Have you checked the reliability of Jeep ? They will crater at around 50k miles. Ask me I know. My old '92 Jeep is still running..but since they were bought out..ick. Had several F150's but most Manufacturers are having some type of recall. For God's sake drive one before you bash the Grenadier...They are refreshing in a world of push button technology.
We own both a Jeep Wrangler (heavily modified with 5.5" lift, lockers, 35s, supercharger to compensate for the extra weight and much more over the years). Had considered a new Rubicon as our 2nd vehicle until I drove the both and chose the Grenadier. Build quality doesn't compare - the Ineos is a tank and servicing is a breeze. My mechanic (an avid Jeep Crawler and specialist) simply thought it was well designed (overly) and has no issue with the known reliability of the BMW engine. This article seems to be written by someone who just surfed the web to come up with their opinion and zero real world experience with the vehicle. The Ineos is a tank and you feel the difference. Not even a close comparison. As for the "Wealth Signaling" comment the Rubicon isn't much cheaper, except for build quality. Explains why Stellantis has been struggling as a company (amongst others).
What a load of bollocks. I have 50k kms on mine. A few niggles with software, awesomely capable, comfortable. But it’s not a Toyota and is not as refined as a Toyota, also not as boring
Some of the observations are very credible and well written.
The notion all BMW engines are garbage is not in that category. They have , and still do make some of the best automotive engines in the world. The B58 is in that camp. I have had three , wracked up over 220k across them and aside from consumables had zero issues outside of routine servicing.
Maybe I’m just lucky.
You're definitely lucky. And 220k across three engines is...not really that exciting?
We own a 200 series Land Cruiser. If we wanted to hop in it 5 minutes from now and drive it around the world, we could do that without a single moment of thought or preparation. It's got 30k miles on it now, but the same will be true at 300k, or 600k...you get the idea. An engine blowing up the second its warranty is up may be what you want in a supercar, but it is very much not appropriate for a 4x4.
Don’t review cars that you haven’t driven. Simple.
What a load of utter nonsense! A poorly researched review. Did you actually talk to owners to get the consensus on whether they made a good choice or not? I know the answer…